Berlin, 7 July 2010

 

Die Zeit: Madam Fu, when you come to Europe, do you feel you've come to a continent of the past or a continent of the future?

Fu Ying: Both. Europe definitely has a deep root in the past, with its literature and contribution to industrialization, etc. I also think you have a great future because Europe leads the world in many of the new things like climate change research, renewable energy, etc. And the EU is such a venture, a bold move on a continent that was, for centuries, in wars and conflicts.

Die Zeit: Many Asians feel Europe is falling behind though.

Fu Ying: I am not surprised that some people may feel that way. Imagine a Chinese tourist leaving the brand new Terminal 3 of the Beijing airport, and arriving at Heathrow or Charles de Gaulle, he is likely to comment "how come that this airport is so old". The comparison is there.

Nevertheless I don't think Chinese see Europe as falling behind economically. In per capita GDP terms, you are ten times higher than us, and your living standard, the quality of life and welfare are well ahead of China. We won't be able to catch up with you for a long time to come.

Die Zeit: Do you see the same dynamism in Europe as you see in China today?

Fu Ying: Countries such as Germany are still economically dynamic. Nearly all Chinese provinces have cooperation with Germany. When one buys anything made in Europe, the first impression is invariably reliability and good quality.

Yet, the way you talk and walk make people feel Europe is dragging its feet. I still remember when I was an interpreter in the 1980s, human rights was always on the menu in our dialogues. Our European guests brought lists of names with them. Thirty years later, China has moved on, and the world has moved on. So much has changed. In 2004, protection of human rights was incorporated into China's Constitution. Many relevant laws and rules have been amended accordingly. On my part, I can see fundamental changes both in the attitude of the people towards human rights and the development of human rights protection in China.

But European delegations still come to China with the same old attitude. They accuse and interrogate China in a condescending way. I really don't hear much mentioning of China's human rights progress. In China, some individuals put forward demands impossible to meet. Yet, these political extremists seem to become the whole picture of China's human rights for European countries.

Die Zeit: Europeans do notice and do, of course, value that your fight against poverty, for example, is very successful. But we find it unacceptable that people don't have free speech, free assembly, or the freedom to found a free party.

Fu Ying: When you talk about China not being this or that, you are using your own standards. I wonder if you remember where you were at the same early stage of industrialization as China is at now. You have built a strong welfare society. Food and shelter is not a problem for a long time. However, we only bade farewell to economic deprivation not too long ago and my generation have personal experience of hunger. If the west insists on judging China by its western standards, expecting China to become a western-style country, it will always stay confused.

Die Zeit: Would you say ok if China has the human rights standards of Europe in the early 19th century?

Fu Ying: Prominent Chinese scholars at the sunset of the Qing Dynasty tried to reform China's feudal system with the western concept of human rights. But it was soon driven home to them that the western concept of human rights had its many limitations. What's more, westerners were unwilling to make Chinese their equals in human rights. In Concessions in Chinese cities, westerners were made superior to local people. Human rights was then merely an elite thing. Dialogue hardly existed. The first wave of China's human rights movement went nowhere.

The second wave was characterized by the students' and workers' movement, and it was embraced by the Communist Party. But after the founding of the People's Republic in 1949, there came the western blockade. Many western concepts including human rights were rejected as a result of the relationship we had. The third wave, the most successful one yet, culminated in 2004, when "protection of human rights" was incorporated into the Chinese Constitution. Since then, we have introduced and amended many laws, including, among others, the Labor Law and the Property Law. They are perhaps not perfect, but still represent a big step forward for the development of China's legal system.

On the one hand, China is not rejecting the idea of human rights. It's learning gradually and absorbing ideas that can be planted and grown and prosper on Chinese soil. But on the other hand, there is the rejection of being imposed on, which still makes us uncomfortable.

Die Zeit: But the call for respecting human rights does not only come from abroad. It also comes from China itself, from as early as the 1970s to this day.

Fu Ying: There have been lots of things going on in China. We had the Cultural Revolution, our successful reform, and the progress in economic development. We've met the keen interest of the majority of our people to maintain political stability. We had rioting in Tibet and Xinjiang, flood, earthquake, the Olympics, etc. When you refer to things in China, it's important to see the whole picture.

Looking back at China's history of 60 years, one can see the problems we had along the way as well as our ability to correct and prevent their reoccurrence, especially the Cultural Revolution which traumatized the whole country. No one wants to see anything of the same sort encore.

To know China, it's not enough to single out things you are interested in, or only listen to people who talk your talk. It's always the interest of the majority that counts. It is not difficult to find extremists among China's 1.3 billion people. Divergent views exist in every field. A wise decision can only be made when there is a good identification of where the stake is for the majority of the people.

Die Zeit: Economically, China is a different country, but not much politically.

Fu Ying: That's an irony. The western world acknowledges the economic progress in China, and appreciates China's contribution to the efforts against the financial crisis. But there is such a determined omission of the political progress in China. You do not seem to follow a straight logic with China. It's like saying that China has achieved all these without a government, without the Party, without policies, maybe in total anarchy, so to speak.

Die Zeit: I wonder if you are so successful, why don't you open up a bit more, or even more?

Fu Ying: I wasn't quite finished with my answer just now. My second point is, if you think your model is the best, I mean, your political system, your way of dealing with the media, your governmental structure and your party system, and you use them as the ultimate measure of China, you'll find China does not fit in. Yet, look around at countries that have adopted your system, how successful they are? Which one is doing as well as you are? Have they approached your per capita GDP? You want to share your political system, your values with a lot of countries, but you are not sharing your wealth, your living standard, which is the foundation of your political system.

Die Zeit: Is it a major intellectual mistake that we expect other countries, for example China, to take on the western model?

Fu Ying: What's your experience in promoting your system in other parts of the world? How successful it has been?

Die Zeit: Mixed results I should say.

Fu Ying: Maybe it works somewhere, but not necessarily everywhere. No one should assume that people in China are walking without a brain. There are 1.3 billion people, a very lively society. There are lots of families, mothers nurturing their children and citizen with his or her own aspirations. They have expectations for the government which have to be responded to. In China we have an ancient metaphor about the relationship between the government and the people. The government is compared to a boat and the people to sea water. To stay afloat, the government must respond and deliver by making the right decisions. Otherwise, the sea water may simply capsize the boat. China with all its success deserves respect and cool-minded analysis about what it is, not necessarily how China fits your standard.

Die Zeit: Is it your impression that China is not respected?

Fu Ying: Lots of people have that feeling.

Die Zeit: What make you feel so?

Fu Ying: You want me to criticize?

Die Zeit: Yes.

Fu Ying: That will be interfering in other countries' internal affairs. (laugh)

Die Zeit: All the better!

Fu Ying: We do believe in criticism, without which our last three decades of reform could not have been possible. Given the size of China, some things grow slowly, but our reform never stops. Yet, the reporting on China is like cooking dishes always with vinegar. Every dish has the same sour taste.

Die Zeit: Our government may have exactly the same thing to say about the press, that whatever they report, there is always a taste of vinegar. But reporters are not paid to laud the government.

Fu Ying: You do have a more critical and more developed press, which your government has very well adapted to.

Die Zeit: That's not always the case.

Fu Ying: I did some research when I was in the UK, trying to understand the competitive market environment of the media. I feel that your media is the product of the development of your modern society. In comparison, Chinese media is younger, but also active. They would follow any lead of, for example, a polluted river or environmental degradation caused by factory operation.

For your media, good news is often not news, but not so in China, where good news is also news. For example, stories of altruism and heroism in time of natural disasters also arrest much media attention.

Die Zeit: Our good news this summer is the German national soccer team.

Fu Ying: (Laugh) Right! The last game of a day starts at 02:30 in the morning Beijing time. My driver always watches the games deep into the night, making me, the passenger, nervous when he drives me around in the day. We all like the German team. They are so good, so young and so dynamic. Coming back to the second point on western media. They seem to be less responsible when they report things about China or other countries, probably because they don't need proof.

Die Zeit: Over the last few years, the extent of reporting on China is much bigger and the quality is more competent.

Fu Ying: The extent is bigger and the content tends to become more balanced since the Olympic Games, but the vinegar taste is still there.

Die Zeit: Before the Olympics you said there were some western media demonizing China. Would you still say that today?

Fu Ying: That was between the Lhasa rioting of March 14, 2008 and the London torch relay of April 6. I was very surprised by the behavior of the media at that time. If you reel back your tapes to the first three days of TV reporting on Lhasa rioting, you would see on the footage police beating monks, but the police were wearing different uniforms every day! Those were not even Chinese police. It was so obvious and anyone could almost immediately see there's something wrong. I am sure those insiders who put the footage on TV should know it was not from China, but why would they still do that? It so damaged the image of your media in China, especially among the young. It was really disastrous for your reputation, which will take a long while to recover from.

Die Zeit: Do you think it was done intentionally?

Fu Ying: I don't know and I don't understand why. I wonder if you realize the extent of damage it has inflicted on yourself. It needs considerable effort for you to recover from that kind of damage. Maybe you can choose to forget or ignore it. But I'm sure many people saw that and they remember.